The final stretch…
As we get ever closer to the end of this journey….I have compiled a list of what we will miss, what we will not miss, and what especially draws us to going back home. (In no particular order…AND clearly not of “equal weight”!)
What we will miss from India
Being all together - - seeing all the boys converged in a single room and planning out their lives.
Spoken Web and the opportunity to have global impact
My India Research Lab friends and colleagues
Washed and ironed clothes every day
Driver waiting outside and carrying my heavy bags
Dealing with the big and important social issues
Cultural learnings as part of daily lunchtime conversations
Mango yogurt, mango ice cream, mango tic tacs
Mithai (Indian sweets)
Daily crosswords with Amnon and Tomy
Having my hair washed and blow dried; pedi, mani, facials every week when I want
Massive repairs on my clothing for $1
Paneer and roti
Chandana, our maid
Leaving dirty dishes in the sink (even big piles on the weekend) and coming home to see WHOOSH! They have all disappeared
Fortis hospital with high quality, low cost, centralized care
Inexpensive medications
Delicious fruits and vegetables
American Embassy School
Learning Hindi
Learning Bollywood Dancing
The parks right outside our apartment for morning walks
Fresh cooked food every evening
The “IRL kids” that we tutor
Blogging….who will care about blogs from NY..?
Living an interesting and different and unconventional life
What we will not miss from India
Unbearable summer heat
The air quality (or lack-of-quality)
No driving “autonomy”
Traffic
Scamming
Walking the dog WITH a STICK to fend off the strays
Strays
Men peeing against the walls
Dilapidated shopping centers
Pushing and shoving on lines
The dirt and the filth
Mosquitoes
Food often drowning in gravy. Food that is fried; food that can give you food poisoning if it is uncooked or cold
Workers not showing up repeatedly
Appliances breaking down repeatedly
Unskilled workers
No voicemail
Kimbo eating random garbage on the street
Daily power outages (When the lights go out, I don’t startle and say “what happened?”)
Insufficient water
What we look forward to, going home
My extended family
Bet Am Shalom
Smith Avenue and knowing my neighbors
“Owning” my kitchen again; planning nice foods for my family
Neighborhood kids converging at our house and playing video games; I cook and bake for them all night
Ground floor access for Kimbo to go outside and walk or hang around
Garbage cans
Clean and paved streets; not stepping in poo
Drinking water from the faucet
Homogenized and Pasteruized milk in containers vs. filling a metal tin with milk as in “tevye the milkman”
Crossing the street
What we will miss from India
Being all together - - seeing all the boys converged in a single room and planning out their lives.
Spoken Web and the opportunity to have global impact
My India Research Lab friends and colleagues
Washed and ironed clothes every day
Driver waiting outside and carrying my heavy bags
Dealing with the big and important social issues
Cultural learnings as part of daily lunchtime conversations
Mango yogurt, mango ice cream, mango tic tacs
Mithai (Indian sweets)
Daily crosswords with Amnon and Tomy
Having my hair washed and blow dried; pedi, mani, facials every week when I want
Massive repairs on my clothing for $1
Paneer and roti
Chandana, our maid
Leaving dirty dishes in the sink (even big piles on the weekend) and coming home to see WHOOSH! They have all disappeared
Fortis hospital with high quality, low cost, centralized care
Inexpensive medications
Delicious fruits and vegetables
American Embassy School
Learning Hindi
Learning Bollywood Dancing
The parks right outside our apartment for morning walks
Fresh cooked food every evening
The “IRL kids” that we tutor
Blogging….who will care about blogs from NY..?
Living an interesting and different and unconventional life
What we will not miss from India
Unbearable summer heat
The air quality (or lack-of-quality)
No driving “autonomy”
Traffic
Scamming
Walking the dog WITH a STICK to fend off the strays
Strays
Men peeing against the walls
Dilapidated shopping centers
Pushing and shoving on lines
The dirt and the filth
Mosquitoes
Food often drowning in gravy. Food that is fried; food that can give you food poisoning if it is uncooked or cold
Workers not showing up repeatedly
Appliances breaking down repeatedly
Unskilled workers
No voicemail
Kimbo eating random garbage on the street
Daily power outages (When the lights go out, I don’t startle and say “what happened?”)
Insufficient water
What we look forward to, going home
My extended family
Bet Am Shalom
Smith Avenue and knowing my neighbors
“Owning” my kitchen again; planning nice foods for my family
Neighborhood kids converging at our house and playing video games; I cook and bake for them all night
Ground floor access for Kimbo to go outside and walk or hang around
Garbage cans
Clean and paved streets; not stepping in poo
Drinking water from the faucet
Homogenized and Pasteruized milk in containers vs. filling a metal tin with milk as in “tevye the milkman”
Crossing the street
Can I blog from NY? Who will care, once our lives are more routine and mundane?
I have enjoyed the experience of blogging this year - - organizing my thoughts, preserving our memories, and entertaining our family and friends. The Google blogspot lets the blog-owner see how many page views they have had, and from what regions. I include a snapshot below. It says there have been 5733 Page Views since I started the blog! Note also the distribution of people that have read the blog to date - - (Who do I know in Ukraine? And in Russia?? ) I thought about the option of monetizing the blog, and using the proceeds for charitable efforts in India like caring for stray dogs. But then I read posts from others that have included ads to monetize their blogs…and they got trivial sums of money even for sites with tens of thousands of hits…and so I scrapped that idea; I needn’t “punish” readers with ads in order to raise just a few dollars…I can happily donate those sums on my own.
Our social activity with “IRL kids”
In our very backyard…about 300 meters from our IBM Research India offices, and right in front of Teri University, there is a tent village that has sprung up, for families working on some of the nearby construction sites. The living conditions are….horrific. These are tents with no sanitation nearby, no water, no electricity. The kids play around the site with no formal structure; a couple of kids go to government schools but the vast majority do not.
So many questions emerge. One question is….why would these families come from their villages to live in the city of Delhi under these conditions? Some of my colleagues point out that the cities have better infrastructure, with respect to water, electricity. This may well be true….but THESE communities aren’t enjoying the “better infrastructure” of more available electricity. They are so close to the bottom of existence, that I can’t imagine what is worse in their home villages, unless they are literally starving there. A friend of a friend works with village NGOs….she has indicated that people are in fact more nutritionally deprived if they stay in their villages, and that life in Delhi hutments is an improvement.
Another question that emerges (though I should have stopped asking this question by now) is, how is it tolerated? There might be construction going on at 34th street in NYC, and it might be convenient for the builders to have low wage laborers pitch tents right outside, but this just wouldn’t/couldn’t happen. Can’t there be some mandate that requires the developers to build some off-site accommodation for their low cost laborers?
Some of my colleagues have initiated tutoring sessions for these kids, an activity that I have thoroughly and completely embraced. We meet with about 25 kids 3 evenings a week, and tutor them in basic math, and teach them letters/reading (in Hindi). We provide them with a healthy snack (mango, bananas) at the end of the lessons. Some of the adults have joined in as well…they, too, are illiterate, and some of them want to learn. Getting the adults involved is a great boon; it suggests they will support, encourage, and tutor their own children.
We have provided the kids with a lot of “stuff” - - we bought them some clothes that we call their “school uniforms.” We got them notebooks, pencils, folders, pencil boxes. I need to learn to deal with some of the unpleasant sides that accompany desperate neediness. They always want more. Jesse and Tom volunteered for a few of these tutoring sessions before they left India. Jesse was annoyed when he saw kids taking a mango at the end, then hiding it and claiming they had never gotten one. I pointed out that hunger, and the fact that you might not get another mango anytime soon, can spawn these behaviors. Jesse said that they are ignoring the kid next to them…who is ALSO hungry…and will go without getting any fruit at all if other kids take multiples. Maybe kids can’t think that philosophically when they are hungry. Our IRL colleagues have created more orderly systems for distributing the treats at the end of the lesson. I muse about whether we are teaching them behaviors that are MALADAPTIVE for the circumstances that they live in….not “grabbing” from us is fine, and everyone WILL get their share…but perhaps in their “real worlds,” not pushing to the front to get what you want will result in not getting what you need to survive….
We took the kids to see a movie a few weeks ago. (Stanley Ka Dabba…particularly appropriate, since it addresses child labor.) So many firsts for these kids. The movie was in a nearby mall (1 km from their tents, but a world away.) The kids had never been on an escalator, and needed help to take the first step. We got them ice cream after the movie. The girls (aged 5 – 10 or so) asked me to take them to the “toilet.” I did. They went into the stalls, closed the doors…and peed on the floor. It hadn’t occurred to me that they had never used a toilet. The maintenance woman was forgiving; it was clear to her that I was accompanying kids that didn’t know any better and that I was from “outside” and wouldn’t have suspected this. I asked a nearby Indian woman to explain to the girls (in Hindi) what they were supposed to do in bathrooms. These poor and illiterate kids need to learn so much more than just their letters and arithmetic. A song keeps running through my head that reflects this experience...."There's a hole in the bucket, dear Henry dear Henry..."
I am so grateful for this opportunity to get involved and help these kids in some small way; it has been a gift for me. But I get really “judgmental” when others walk by while we are working with the kids, and don’t also get involved. Some men from the community that work in nearby offices come out in the early evening to do yoga on the same field where we are tutoring. And I am bothered that they don’t ask to get involved….this is their own community that will grow up to be illiterate, perhaps criminal, and a drain on social welfare….How can they so blithely do yoga, with these clearly needy kids just a few meters away from them? If we have 25 kids, we could benefit from 25 volunteers…we only have an hour or so, 3 times/week, and all the kids are at different levels and could benefit from more individual attention. I am reminded of a quote from a book that my friend Erik lent me many years ago, about the wealthier class not hearing/seeing the poor people nearby:
From Edward Bellamy, Looking Backward - - Utopian Novel from 1888…
Do none of you know what sights the sun and stars look down on in this city, that you can think and talk of anything else? Do you not know that close to your doors a great multitude of men and women, flesh of your flesh, live lives that are one agony from birth to death? Listen! Their dwellings are so near that if you hush your laughter you will hear their grievous voices, the piteous crying of the little ones that suckle poverty, the hoarse curses of men sodden in misery turned half-way back to brutes, the chaffering of an army of women selling themselves for bread. With what have you stopped your ears that you do not hear those doleful sounds? For me, I can hear nothing else.’
Adam’s last day of school before finals
I spoke to Adam about reflections on the year. He said that he cannot believe that the year in India is actually coming to a close. On the other hand, he also can’t believe that all that he has experienced has been packed into a single year. I think that a key factor in making “time not fly” is to fill that time with lots of rich, diverse experiences. If you are spending your days with simple routines, you will remember just a few of those days and then look back and think “A whole year has passed ALREADY? I only remember a couple of key events…” But if you are doing the work of two people, you are also more likely to look back and say “All THAT was done in just one year? It seems like longer…” So, that’s my personal secret in creating the PERCEPTION, at least, of a longer life!
Adam was waxing a bit nostalgic. He likes the American Embassy School, and the friends that he has made, and at least SOME of the strangeness of living in a strange country. I reminded him of one of those “life anecdotes” that I share with my sister-in-law Malka, who also has 4 kids. We were at an indoor amusement park in New York, will all 8 of our kids; some of them under the age of 2 years old. ALL of them found their “niche” at this park, playing in one of those “pools” with plastic balls, going down slides, etc. Malka and I sat on the side of the “plastic ball” pool, watching the kids play. We were planning to leave shortly; Malka said this was such a pleasant setting, all the kids were having fun…we could stay all afternoon.
Within minutes…one of our kids threw up in the pool of balls (probably one of mine…), two of our kids started fighting, another kid started crying, and all hell broke loose; we couldn’t get out of there fast enough.
Malka and I have coined the Hebrew phrase “ha daka ha critit” - - “the critical moment.” No one “rings a bell” at the high point of your experience, indicating that it’s all downhill from there….So you have a choice: Leave when you are at a “high point,” and regretting that you need to leave so soon, or leave after everything starts to disintegrate. I vote for leaving when you are still at a high point. We can all think of analogies like this in our lives…overstaying at a party, or a vacation, or a conversation with someone. Leave while you are all “still hungry” for more, and regretting that you need to leave so soon. I think that this is where Adam is now, and it’s a good place to be.
Adam was waxing a bit nostalgic. He likes the American Embassy School, and the friends that he has made, and at least SOME of the strangeness of living in a strange country. I reminded him of one of those “life anecdotes” that I share with my sister-in-law Malka, who also has 4 kids. We were at an indoor amusement park in New York, will all 8 of our kids; some of them under the age of 2 years old. ALL of them found their “niche” at this park, playing in one of those “pools” with plastic balls, going down slides, etc. Malka and I sat on the side of the “plastic ball” pool, watching the kids play. We were planning to leave shortly; Malka said this was such a pleasant setting, all the kids were having fun…we could stay all afternoon.
Within minutes…one of our kids threw up in the pool of balls (probably one of mine…), two of our kids started fighting, another kid started crying, and all hell broke loose; we couldn’t get out of there fast enough.
Malka and I have coined the Hebrew phrase “ha daka ha critit” - - “the critical moment.” No one “rings a bell” at the high point of your experience, indicating that it’s all downhill from there….So you have a choice: Leave when you are at a “high point,” and regretting that you need to leave so soon, or leave after everything starts to disintegrate. I vote for leaving when you are still at a high point. We can all think of analogies like this in our lives…overstaying at a party, or a vacation, or a conversation with someone. Leave while you are all “still hungry” for more, and regretting that you need to leave so soon. I think that this is where Adam is now, and it’s a good place to be.
Separated by a common language
The following note was sent around by the operations manager at IBM India Research:
Date: 05/25/2011 11:50 AM
Subject: Saari Day Tomorrow
Dear Colleagues
Some of our colleagues have suggested to have "Sari Day" in IRL. As tomorrow we have month end party, let’s make Saari day tomorrow. Request you all wear a Saari on this day.
P.S. - Bachelors are not an exception. In case you have excuses - like I don't know how to wear it, the answer is I will help you in wearing it. Or, “I don't have a saari”- So, take it from your mummy or any relative ;-))
_____________________________________________________
I am at a disadvantage here…I don’t have any relatives in India that can lend me a saari…
But the funny part is that I read this note, and then told some of my male colleagues during lunch that EVERYONE has to wear a saari on saari day, even the guys; and the bachelors that can’t “borrow” one from their wives need to borrow one from their mothers.
Well….it turns out that BACHELOR in India refers to men OR women. And so this note was referring to SINGLE WOMEN when it said “Bachelor.” The IBM Research guys will not be obliged to cross-dress on Saari day…
Beautician for spa birthday party, juxtaposed to girl abuse…
India is a country of contrasts - - phenomenally rich vs. desperately poor; elegance and courtliness vs. disrespect and dishonor, etc. etc. A recent posting in Delhi Network (an expat listserv) captured both Indias in two short postings. Read below….no additional commentary required…
There are 2 messages in this issue.
Messages
___________________________________________________
1. Support Sahara House by donating household goods
Date: Wed May 4, 2011 10:12 am ((PDT))
Here is another opportunity to support a worthy cause while clearing out your unwanted household goods!
-----------------------
Courage Homes is a team of expats and Indians who are working together to establish a transition home for girls who have been rescued out of forced prostitution. We will be receiving girls who the police or other rescue organizations find in brothels. The Child Welfare Committee then assigns them to us to take care of until the court decides where they should go. During their time with us, we will have trauma counseling, meetings with a lawyer, and times with a social worker, who will also determine if it is safe for her to return home. We may have the girls with us for 6 months.
………
Some of the things we need/wish for: Sheets for single beds, clothing for girls ages 13-18, desks, simple books, desk chairs, balls, hula hoops……
2. Fwd: post
Posted by: "Delhi Network Moderator" dnmoderator@yahoo.com Date: Thu May 5, 2011 3:37 am ((PDT))
Sent from my iPhone
Begin forwarded message:
>
> Hi Ladies,
>
> I was hoping someone could refer me to a reputable mobile beautician who must be > female. My daughter is having a spa birthday party at home next weekend and I
> need help!!
>
There are 2 messages in this issue.
Messages
___________________________________________________
1. Support Sahara House by donating household goods
Date: Wed May 4, 2011 10:12 am ((PDT))
Here is another opportunity to support a worthy cause while clearing out your unwanted household goods!
-----------------------
Courage Homes is a team of expats and Indians who are working together to establish a transition home for girls who have been rescued out of forced prostitution. We will be receiving girls who the police or other rescue organizations find in brothels. The Child Welfare Committee then assigns them to us to take care of until the court decides where they should go. During their time with us, we will have trauma counseling, meetings with a lawyer, and times with a social worker, who will also determine if it is safe for her to return home. We may have the girls with us for 6 months.
………
Some of the things we need/wish for: Sheets for single beds, clothing for girls ages 13-18, desks, simple books, desk chairs, balls, hula hoops……
2. Fwd: post
Posted by: "Delhi Network Moderator" dnmoderator@yahoo.com Date: Thu May 5, 2011 3:37 am ((PDT))
Sent from my iPhone
Begin forwarded message:
>
> Hi Ladies,
>
> I was hoping someone could refer me to a reputable mobile beautician who must be > female. My daughter is having a spa birthday party at home next weekend and I
> need help!!
>
Taking personal responsibility
One of my Indian colleagues has pointed out to me that Indians are not wont to accept personal responsibility. One of our running jokes surfaced during a visit to a local coffee shop. We came in on a hot day, and the coffee shop was unpleasantly warm. My colleague asked someone working there whether the AC was not working. The employee replied that the AC was WORKING, just not COOLING. I also noticed the signs that they posted on the door to indicate that the coffee shop was “open” or “closed.” When it was closed, the sign read: “oops wrong timing.”
I noticed another blog that had some funny examples of not accepting personal responsibility…I include the link, and the excerpt from this blog, below.
http://ourdelhistruggle.com/2008/04/08/learning-new-english/
Indian corporate and governmental entities don’t like to take responsibility for anything. Their efforts to apologize for the horrific state of the infrastructure take the passive voice to enterprising new heights with three simple words: “Inconvenience is regretted.”
“Rest assured,” they’re essentially saying, “that someone is sorry this four-lane highway is squeezed into one lane so we can spend six months installing these sewer pipes. We’re NOT saying that WE feel bad about anything; but we want you to know that someone, somewhere, is filled with intense remorse. Not necessarily us. But someone.”
At the airport, which is under a perpetual state of construction, someone somewhere is really wringing their hands over the plight of the traveler. “Inconvenience,” say the signs, “is deeply regretted.”
I noticed another blog that had some funny examples of not accepting personal responsibility…I include the link, and the excerpt from this blog, below.
http://ourdelhistruggle.com/2008/04/08/learning-new-english/
Indian corporate and governmental entities don’t like to take responsibility for anything. Their efforts to apologize for the horrific state of the infrastructure take the passive voice to enterprising new heights with three simple words: “Inconvenience is regretted.”
“Rest assured,” they’re essentially saying, “that someone is sorry this four-lane highway is squeezed into one lane so we can spend six months installing these sewer pipes. We’re NOT saying that WE feel bad about anything; but we want you to know that someone, somewhere, is filled with intense remorse. Not necessarily us. But someone.”
At the airport, which is under a perpetual state of construction, someone somewhere is really wringing their hands over the plight of the traveler. “Inconvenience,” say the signs, “is deeply regretted.”
Drinking in India
Drinking alcohol is apparently a serious, serious problem here. Worse yet, guards and drivers are known to be the communities that drink heavily. Still worse, drinking and driving are considered a norm; if the driver is caught, police are easily paid off. We saw a signpost while we were in Mumbai that said “Drink, OR drive.”
We have had a couple of these experiences with our own driver. On Diwali, I saw him staggering home from a party. This was “off time,” but it was a red flag for us that there could be a problem here. It is hard to believe that someone gets fall-over drunk on his off time but never touches alcohol during non-holidays. Amnon made it painfully clear that as long as he works for us, drinking is taboo. Indeed, even in the evenings of the work week it is taboo….If there were an emergency at night, and we needed to get somewhere, *he* is our driver and our means of transportation.
In February, while Amnon was in the US, the boys and I had another “situation.” We were walking Kimbo, and our driver was hanging out at the guard booth. (All of the drivers and guards hang around together; there is so much down-time for all of them. For guards, in fact, it is ALL down time…) Our driver saw us, but clearly was uncomfortable. We lifted Kimbo, then a small puppy, to greet the driver. The driver said repeatedly “BYE, Kimbo…” He clearly wanted us to go.
The boys then looked out from the rooftop, down on the guard booth, and saw the guards and our driver passing around a bottle.
The boys THEN called the driver, saying that one of them needed to go to the doctor. Our hope was that he would say he wasn’t feeling up to driving, and that he would tell us to take a cab. But no, we came downstairs, and there he was, red-eyed and behind the wheel.
The boys told him to get out of our car, and give back the car keys - - he would no longer be our driver. (Note that this complicates things….Our driver and maid live in our servant quarters on the roof with their 3 teenaged-and-above kids. You do not want to have a drunk and disgruntled ex-driver living on your rooftop. Nor do you want to evict a family.)
People that I spoke to at work, and people that Adam spoke to at school, indicated that this was not uncommon at all; that many drivers in India drink. So it was not as though we got the “bad apple” and if we just replaced him, we would be safe and secure…
Amnon returned from the US a few days later, and spoke to our driver. He read our driver the riot act. He retained his salary for that month, and said he would only get it…along with his bonus…if he remained “dry” until the end of our stay here in July. Amnon said that if he finds a drink that is worth THAT much money to him….then enjoy it.
Our driver was diagnosed with diabetes soon after this, and told that he was medically forbidden to drink. So we assumed we now had even more assurance that drinking was “history.” Amnon ultimately gave him the salary we had withheld.
A couple of weeks ago, there was a birthday party for one of the other drivers. Our driver went to celebrate with him. Amnon needed to go somewhere in the afternoon (it was a regular workday), and our driver had clearly been drinking, despite the warnings, despite the diabetes. Amnon took back the keys to the car, and told him to move off of our premises by the next day. (His wife and family were allowed to stay. His wife – our maid – was so incensed with her husband that I don’t think her allegiances were even divided…)
We have had a couple of these experiences with our own driver. On Diwali, I saw him staggering home from a party. This was “off time,” but it was a red flag for us that there could be a problem here. It is hard to believe that someone gets fall-over drunk on his off time but never touches alcohol during non-holidays. Amnon made it painfully clear that as long as he works for us, drinking is taboo. Indeed, even in the evenings of the work week it is taboo….If there were an emergency at night, and we needed to get somewhere, *he* is our driver and our means of transportation.
In February, while Amnon was in the US, the boys and I had another “situation.” We were walking Kimbo, and our driver was hanging out at the guard booth. (All of the drivers and guards hang around together; there is so much down-time for all of them. For guards, in fact, it is ALL down time…) Our driver saw us, but clearly was uncomfortable. We lifted Kimbo, then a small puppy, to greet the driver. The driver said repeatedly “BYE, Kimbo…” He clearly wanted us to go.
The boys then looked out from the rooftop, down on the guard booth, and saw the guards and our driver passing around a bottle.
The boys THEN called the driver, saying that one of them needed to go to the doctor. Our hope was that he would say he wasn’t feeling up to driving, and that he would tell us to take a cab. But no, we came downstairs, and there he was, red-eyed and behind the wheel.
The boys told him to get out of our car, and give back the car keys - - he would no longer be our driver. (Note that this complicates things….Our driver and maid live in our servant quarters on the roof with their 3 teenaged-and-above kids. You do not want to have a drunk and disgruntled ex-driver living on your rooftop. Nor do you want to evict a family.)
People that I spoke to at work, and people that Adam spoke to at school, indicated that this was not uncommon at all; that many drivers in India drink. So it was not as though we got the “bad apple” and if we just replaced him, we would be safe and secure…
Amnon returned from the US a few days later, and spoke to our driver. He read our driver the riot act. He retained his salary for that month, and said he would only get it…along with his bonus…if he remained “dry” until the end of our stay here in July. Amnon said that if he finds a drink that is worth THAT much money to him….then enjoy it.
Our driver was diagnosed with diabetes soon after this, and told that he was medically forbidden to drink. So we assumed we now had even more assurance that drinking was “history.” Amnon ultimately gave him the salary we had withheld.
A couple of weeks ago, there was a birthday party for one of the other drivers. Our driver went to celebrate with him. Amnon needed to go somewhere in the afternoon (it was a regular workday), and our driver had clearly been drinking, despite the warnings, despite the diabetes. Amnon took back the keys to the car, and told him to move off of our premises by the next day. (His wife and family were allowed to stay. His wife – our maid – was so incensed with her husband that I don’t think her allegiances were even divided…)
Addressing the BIG ISSUES in India
I have always been passionate about social action, and I will be forever grateful for opportunities to get involved in social action in India. Another blog posting talks about the kids we have been tutoring down the road from IBM Research in New Delhi. Kids with insufficient food, poor hygiene, no education, and living in tents. Am I now “spoiled” for social action topics in the US, which will seem SO MUCH more manageable, even trivial?
I think about that with Amnon, and the scale and scope of construction projects that he is now managing in India. His company is building hotels, hospitals, whole towns. Amnon has commented that any one of his projects now exceeds in size all of the projects that he has managed in the US over 25 years, cumulatively.
Amnon's job as Sr VP of Feedback Infra is one of the many amazing and unexpected side benefits of our year in India. He is responsible for building hospitals, 5-star hotels, and townships. After building in India, it is hard to imagine building again in the west. For one, the construction and real estate sector is still in recession in the US although other parts of the economy are rebounding. I ask myself whether the US construction space will ever fully rebound...or has supply simply exceeded demand? It is a gift and a blessing to have these large and meaningful opportunities for Amnon to use his talents, in a place that deeply needs those talents, and where he is so appreciated. (My father used to sing an old show tune..."How are you going to keep them down on the farm, after they've seen Paree?)
I also recall the line in Crocodile Dundee. Someone pulls out a switchblade in the subway to threaten the star. He, in turn, pulls out a much longer knife from his waistband, and says something like “You call THAT a KNIFE?? THIS is a KNIFE.” And so similarly, will I feel like the social action problems we address in the US are just not that serious?
I think about that with Amnon, and the scale and scope of construction projects that he is now managing in India. His company is building hotels, hospitals, whole towns. Amnon has commented that any one of his projects now exceeds in size all of the projects that he has managed in the US over 25 years, cumulatively.
Amnon's job as Sr VP of Feedback Infra is one of the many amazing and unexpected side benefits of our year in India. He is responsible for building hospitals, 5-star hotels, and townships. After building in India, it is hard to imagine building again in the west. For one, the construction and real estate sector is still in recession in the US although other parts of the economy are rebounding. I ask myself whether the US construction space will ever fully rebound...or has supply simply exceeded demand? It is a gift and a blessing to have these large and meaningful opportunities for Amnon to use his talents, in a place that deeply needs those talents, and where he is so appreciated. (My father used to sing an old show tune..."How are you going to keep them down on the farm, after they've seen Paree?)
I also recall the line in Crocodile Dundee. Someone pulls out a switchblade in the subway to threaten the star. He, in turn, pulls out a much longer knife from his waistband, and says something like “You call THAT a KNIFE?? THIS is a KNIFE.” And so similarly, will I feel like the social action problems we address in the US are just not that serious?
Where does traffic discipline come from?
There is a sign at our street corner that says “One Way”. It is constantly violated. (Red lights are also ignored after hours if there are no police nearby.) I ask myself why, and what spawns discipline in the west for things like this? If you are driving on a quiet road in the US late at night, you are not likely to be “caught” by police if you ignore a “one way,” but I still never saw drivers in the US rampantly violating the signs. It is as though we have all bought into a “pact” of (more or less) obeying the signs and the rules, for the greater good. Or is it because the consequences are clear and worse if you DO get caught in the US, while here it is a “known” that you can buy your way out of it?
Treatment of Cows and Right to Life
I have seen cows strolling around the city streets in all areas of India. Even the “elegant” areas are not cow-free….cows don’t read the street signs and one town is as good as the next. They tend to be on the skinny side, since they are nibbling whatever they can find on city streets. They are also docile and friendly; I have never seen cows or bulls here get aggressive or vicious. They have learned to peacefully coexist with local populations. I have heard that local populations also bring them food sometimes - - like chapatis (flatbread) - - (is that nutritionally valuable for cows??) though I have never observed cows getting fed. I am told that these cows are owned by farmers, but they are set off to wander freely during the day to forage for food. If they are indeed “owned” and not homeless, I have no idea how their owners ultimately find them at the end of the day.
It seems a real contradiction; cows are worshiped and not slaughtered, yet they live such a dismal existence on the streets of the cities. I am perplexed about how people that worship these animals can still tolerate their living conditions. (That said, if they CAN’T tolerate their living conditions….I’m not certain what they can actually do about it)…I find it reminiscent, though, of Right to Life movements, where so much energy is invested in ensuring that embryos emerge as babies. But less energy is expended in ensuring that the babies born will have the infrastructure and support to live good lives, despite poverty and other conditions that will challenge their lives.
Where do you start?
There are so many issues to address in India. I think about the fact that mosquitoes carry dengue fever and malaria, and I find myself asking “why can’t they get a handle on managing the disease-carrying mosquitoes?” But I then answer my own question… “If you have problems with people starving, how much effort can you spend on malaria-spreading mosquitoes?” - - This can end up justifying not doing ANYTHING about ANYTHING, however. since everything pales before hunger…That’s right there at the very base of Maslow’s hierarchy of human needs…
Preventing illness in countries like India…
Disease management is different for us here, since the diseases are different. There are rampant stray animals, and Jesse and I made a mission to care for some of these animals. There is a high rate of rabies in India, so Jesse and I got rabies shots. It’s a series of 3 injections, over the course of a month; we get the last one after one year. I’m still not quite sure what it protects you from, since you STILL need to get some shots if you do get bitten, but perhaps it buys you some time?
None of us take malaria medication, and mosquitoes have become prevalent again. There are scary side effects for the malaria pills. (Adam had a bout of sleepwalking while taking these pills when we first arrived, so we all stopped.) Plus, there is no vaccination for mosquito-borne dengue fever. So basically, you really need to prevent all mosquito bites, by using repellents, sprays, etc….and then just praying…
We recently filled out the medical forms to submit to insurance for reimbursal. The list of illnesses were….unusual. We had forms for when Adam had food poisoning, and forms for when he was throwing up blood. We joked that the medical insurance companies won’t want to insure us, after this bizarre string of illnesses. My colleagues commented: On the contrary, you are now immune to so much…
None of us take malaria medication, and mosquitoes have become prevalent again. There are scary side effects for the malaria pills. (Adam had a bout of sleepwalking while taking these pills when we first arrived, so we all stopped.) Plus, there is no vaccination for mosquito-borne dengue fever. So basically, you really need to prevent all mosquito bites, by using repellents, sprays, etc….and then just praying…
We recently filled out the medical forms to submit to insurance for reimbursal. The list of illnesses were….unusual. We had forms for when Adam had food poisoning, and forms for when he was throwing up blood. We joked that the medical insurance companies won’t want to insure us, after this bizarre string of illnesses. My colleagues commented: On the contrary, you are now immune to so much…
Newspaper Article on GRAFT and CORRUPTION
WASHINGTON: The wave of anti-graft protests in India possibly reflects the sense among many Indians that the corruption problem is becoming worse, according to a new Gallup poll .
In 2010, almost half (47 percent) said the level of corruption in India was higher than it was five years earlier, while 27 percent said it was about the same, the poll released by the noted US public opinion agency Monday revealed.
The groundswell of public support for social activist Anna Hazare and the anti-corruption movement shows Indians recognize that the problem is endemic in their society, the poll suggested.
In response to the 2010 poll, 78 percent of Indians said corruption is widespread within the Indian government, and 71 percent said it is widespread within businesses in India.
Asked whether they thought the government was doing enough to fight corruption, more than one-third of Indians (35 percent) said yes, while half (50 percent) said no.
Unemployed Indians were particularly likely to feel the government was not doing enough to fight corruption, with nearly two-thirds (65 percent) responding that way.
Unemployed Indians were also among the most likely to say they recently found themselves in a situation in which they needed to pay a bribe.
Bribery remains widespread in Indian society; about one in five Indians (21 percent) overall said they had faced a situation in the past 12 months in which a bribe was required to solve a problem.
Among the country's unemployed, however, the figure rises to 43 percent -- an indicator that those seeking welfare and job services are among the most vulnerable.
Survey results reveal Indians do not believe the problem is getting any better and many have had to deal with corruption personally.
However, the likelihood that systemic change can be implemented largely depends on whether Indians' underlying dissatisfaction produces sustained public pressure for reform, Gallup said.
Gallup said results are based on face-to-face interviews with 6,000 adults, per survey wave. It put the maximum margin of sampling error at ±1.7 percentage points
In 2010, almost half (47 percent) said the level of corruption in India was higher than it was five years earlier, while 27 percent said it was about the same, the poll released by the noted US public opinion agency Monday revealed.
The groundswell of public support for social activist Anna Hazare and the anti-corruption movement shows Indians recognize that the problem is endemic in their society, the poll suggested.
In response to the 2010 poll, 78 percent of Indians said corruption is widespread within the Indian government, and 71 percent said it is widespread within businesses in India.
Asked whether they thought the government was doing enough to fight corruption, more than one-third of Indians (35 percent) said yes, while half (50 percent) said no.
Unemployed Indians were particularly likely to feel the government was not doing enough to fight corruption, with nearly two-thirds (65 percent) responding that way.
Unemployed Indians were also among the most likely to say they recently found themselves in a situation in which they needed to pay a bribe.
Bribery remains widespread in Indian society; about one in five Indians (21 percent) overall said they had faced a situation in the past 12 months in which a bribe was required to solve a problem.
Among the country's unemployed, however, the figure rises to 43 percent -- an indicator that those seeking welfare and job services are among the most vulnerable.
Survey results reveal Indians do not believe the problem is getting any better and many have had to deal with corruption personally.
However, the likelihood that systemic change can be implemented largely depends on whether Indians' underlying dissatisfaction produces sustained public pressure for reform, Gallup said.
Gallup said results are based on face-to-face interviews with 6,000 adults, per survey wave. It put the maximum margin of sampling error at ±1.7 percentage points
Too big to manage
KEY values for any country should be food, shelter, and education for their people. I care less about national boundaries, and about political structures. One of the comments about India that you hear often is that it is too large, too populated, too diverse to get a handle on all of these issue. (see the National Geographic article from Delhi Struggle.) OK - - who determines the size of a country? If a billion is too many to handle, split into a more easily manageable set of 4 countries, each with 250K, and all with friendly relations and open borders, like the European Union. Also - -people say it is hard to get a handle on things (like clearing the slums) because India is a democracy, and politicians don’t want to inflame a particular community or caste. And that’s the price of a democracy. Well, I naively ask, maybe then it shouldn’t be a democracy, if the openness and inherent chaos of a democracy leaves 70% of the population underfed. Heretical and impractical views, I am sure…
The summer heat
As of May, it is clearly time to use the gym instead of the outdoors….I tried going out to walk first at 8:00, then 7:00, now 6:00 am….but no matter how early I woke up, looks like you can’t beat the heat…It was (just) under 90 degrees F only at 3:30 am or so…
Blame it on the Brits?
General mantra is that the colonization of the British is responsible for many of India’s woes. Even the caste-tensions are blamed on the British. Some of my colleagues have told me that the castes were not created by the British, of course, but the British formalized and documented and imposed caste distinctions that were otherwise not really followed. By doing this, they achieved divide-and-conquer powers, by pitting castes against one another. Adam’s school friends have also commented about the deleterious impact of the British. But THEY said that the British were responsible for smearing caste distinctions, and therefore breaking down age-old roles and responsibilities, and therefore causing chaos. So I am not certain whether the British exacerbated or reduced caste distinctions, but the British are nonetheless blamed for making things worse…
Learn from the Indians how to treat family; learn from the west how to treat everyone else…
I spoke to one of my colleagues about the generally insufficient level of community service. The needs here are clearly greater than they are in the west, yet the community involvement is somehow less. I have been told by some of my colleagues that the needs are SO great, that you don’t need to get involved in community service to be of service…you can be of service anywhere you turn. For example, one colleague told me that their family had opted to provide food and other support to their dhobi-man, the man that came to their home to pick up their laundry. I also think that people in India have to somewhat harden themselves to what they see around them, or their heads would explode. In a deeper follow-on discussion with one of my colleagues, he commented that the west needs to learn from the Indians how to treat family; India needs to learn from the west how to treat everyone else.
No water today
I got up this morning, turned on the faucet, and….nothing. We called our driver (who lived in the rooms on the rooftop, where the water tank is.) He was able to get the water going by tapping on the pipes….fortunately, the tank itself was not empty. But he has pointed out that the government water supply which flows to the tanks in the morning is diminished, now in the “hot season.” He said that government/civil service workers (some 30% of the country) make sure to divert the (dwindling) supply to their own tanks, and so the rest of us need to manage with what remains.
Driving in India
As stated repeatedly, I don’t drive in India. Amnon has driven here on occasion, and says that he isn’t bothered by it. There are many things that make driving impossible for me here….driving on the opposite side of the road (British style), stick shifts, no parking, aggressive and unforgiving drivers. I try to figure out the “syntax of driving” by observation; it’s sort of like “driving with an accent.” Big cars seem to have right of way. But then, small cars and bikes are sometimes “wiry” and slip in between. Adam’s physics teacher (an American that does drive here) said that you have to get used to the fact that drivers here only pay attention to what’s in front of them; not to the sides and rearview. Trucks often have signs painted on the back saying “please honk” - - they want drivers to honk if they are about to pass them, since the trucks apparently have no other way of knowing. Too many novel things to take into account. I’ll stick with the professional drivers…and just hope they stay sober.
YuniNet – discussion about maids/drivers and what expats pay them
I subscribe to a yahoo listserv for expats, called YuniNet. An interesting debate arose over treatment and pay for drivers and maids. I include it below, along with my summary.
On Sat, May 7, 2011 at 5:43 PM, Sara H Basson wrote:
I have enjoyed the threads related to what foreigners should or should not pay their drivers and maids. We are an American expat family in New Delhi for a year. I would be happy to talk about this over coffee!
I have gone through the various postings and I would summarize as follows:
-Indians are able to get maids for 1/10th of the "foreigner" price, and they believe the maids are no less happy or loyal. Giving them more salary creates more of a dependency and helplessness on the part of the servants.
- Some of the foreigners think that paying 10,000 rupees, even if it is an inflated "foreigner price," is a living wage.
- Some Indians point out that the extra money paid makes foreigners look foolish and the servants gloat that they have been able to cheat them.
- Some of the foreigners point out that they work for NGOs and aren't earning expat salaries...and then they just suffer the "price discrimination" for being foreign. (racial profiling!)
My position on these topics would be as follows:
- I don't think that 1000 rupees/month is a living wage in New Delhi...Let's put aside the unfortunate comment about meat; but can you buy enough fruit and vegetables? pay rent? electricity and water? Maybe some of this also comes down to what we all believe is the "minimum" that a person should be able to expect in life when they work. By western standards, we would think that you and your family should be able to afford healthy food, and a place to live that has electricity and water and a bathroom for your family. I have been told that servants can get by on less, because they can live in unorganized locations where they just take electricity and water from the grid without paying for anything. But that shouldn't be the goal.
- I have spoken to expats that also try to make sure that their servants set up bank accounts and that their children get educated. So we can start to break the cycle of poverty, and not foster "dependency."
- I have hired maids that have worked for expat families, and there is a premium to be paid. They speak English, they know international cooking and the sterilization issues for western stomachs. They come with references on letterhead from other expat families, that describe how trustworthy they are. I have trusted them with everything in our apartment; they have keys and full access. I have spoken to Indian colleagues that have had household help for years, and they still have locked rooms and limited access. I asked why they don't get references from previous employers. They said that they wouldn't trust the references; anyone can be paid off to say anything. In our case, I trust that references from other expats working for well-known companies/agencies are legitimate; that's worth a premium in and of itself.
1a. Re: :-) Price of Maids, servants,drivers
Date: Thu May 5, 2011 9:57 am ((PDT))
I agree with Lars, even though many have got triggered by it, somehow.
The same maids work in other houses and ask for a tenth of what they ask of foreigners.
My cook was polished, made momos to kathi rolls, did dishes (Indians don't have dishwashers) and was happy to get a salary of a thousand bucks (NOTE from Sara: 1000 buck = 1000 rupees = $20!)since I speak Hindi, and look like an Indian.
Her dream, of course, was to work in a wealthier house where the lady of the house could 'take care' of her family's needs.
Many of you have western notions of poverty or neediness. Too poor to eat meat!
Please do not think that you are doing any service to Indian humanity by doing this. Pitying them makes them more dependent and it feeds their helplessness.
We need to empower our employees to help themselves.
Regards,
Millie
Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeanne
Sender: Yuni-Net@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 18:43:24
Subject: :-) Yuni-Net -- Price of Maids, servants, drivers, house keepers
I completely agree with you, Heather. I'm in the same situation. I wrote down everything I paid for in an entire month, then exchanged the currency into American dollars. I was shocked. I have paid more for just about everything than I would in the US!!! Look at our typical lifestyles... we drink wine with dinner (800 - 1200 rupees = $17-27), we like AC, TV (DVR of course!) and high speed internet access (my electric bill last month was 9,000 - $205; my internet is 3500 - $78 - it's been up to 36,000 one month last year during the summer) and big cars. I don't own a car so I spend around 25,000 on a car service ($562). My rent is just under 30,000 ($674).
The rickshaw walla charges me a minimum of $1 to go anywhere; most places, it's $10 - negotiated. While these prices may not seem unreasonable in the US, when you're not making a US salary (I make a third of what I could be making back home), this can be very, very exasperating, especially since I know other people who are being charged less just because of their skin color.
I will say that if you know the local language,that can be a huge difference in how hard you can negotiate. My son is fluent and sometimes we go into a shop and he keeps quiet listening to the shopkeepers talking around us, when I've come up with my best price, I sick him on them and he negotiates for even more in Hindi. We've done better this way. I usually have him negotiate with repairmen and such. It really goes a long way....
I love Yuni-Net, though, because there are more people like me on this list than the other lists out there for expats in India. I'm glad we have this place to go just to ask questions about what is reasonable and I welcome people like Lars giving us a reality check every once in a while. After four years, you'd think you'd be settled, but India.... aaaaah, India. You are a place that will not give up your secrets. :-)
Cheers,
Jeanne
On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 6:50 PM, Heather Sager wrote:
> Hi All,
> While not expressed particularly well, I think Lars does hit on a good point. The "expat price" of things doesn't only extend to household help. It extends to everything we purchase. In the situation where an expat can afford to pay extra, that's wonderful. And I whole-heartedly agree that treating every individual with respect is a must. There is no excuse for treating any person poorly.
> However, not every expat is here on an expat-based salary. Many of us are here working (or volunteering) for NGOs or other non-profits, and are thereby making the same salary that an Indian might (or none at all).
Unfortunately, even where we can not afford to pay extra, we are expected to. In fact, it is demanded of us.
In this case, I'm not talking about drivers or household help, I'm more speaking of every day purchases and the like. Because the majority of the expat community can and does pay whatever is demanded of them, we are all expected to pay accordingly, despite what we can or can not afford. And often, attempting to bargain the price down, even to the point where we would still be paying more than what a local would pay, results in outright refusal.
> Regardless of how angry Lars' e-mail came across, it does become exhausting after some time, to know that despite the fact that my salary is the same as any local in my position, I am expected to pay double the rent, double the utilities, and double for food, etc.
> Now, you could argue that if I can not make a salary that would afford me to pay the extra that is demanded of me, then I should either change positions or work back home, where I would be making more. But this argument would demand that only those individuals who are fortunate enough to have money on their own, or who are working for a company/corporation that can afford them a higher salary, can stay in Delhi. The alternative would be to demand a higher salary from the non-profit organization, which is not practical and amounts to a salary increase based on your ethnicity, something I'm sure we all agree in and of itself is wrong.
> I thought I would throw this argument into the mix, to give the other side's perspective.
> Heather
>
> On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 2:34 PM, Beate wrote:
>> Spoken from my heart!!!
>>>> I could not agree more with you, Tommi!
>> I happily pay every single penny to my housekeeper and to my driver. In addition to that I treat them as human beings. And guess what, Lars? It works this way too!! Not only do they enjoy working for us, they actually give us a two hundred percent service and our household is a happy place. In addition to that we actually have the opportunity to get to know this extremely complex culture a little better.
>> So, everybody, do not necessarily as the Indians do, especially in this occasion! We all know only too well how wrong they can get it sometime!!
>> Wishing you a good Sunday
>> Beate
>> --- On *Sat, 30/4/11, Inka wrote:
>> Subject: Re: :-) Yuni-Net -- Price of Maids, servants, drivers, housekeepers
>> Date: Saturday, 30 April, 2011, 12:14 PM
>> Hi there,
>> I am an expat living in Def Col - and using here my wife's Yuni-Net account to post. We are employing two full day servants and two part time ones. I couldn't disagree more with you Lars. I find your posting sad.
>> Why so?
>> You're teaching us - the naive employers on YuniNet - on the reality of Indian maids and servants. Your only point seems to be that we pay more than some locals do. That is true for sure. I guess you just haven't ever thought what kind of living these servants with 2000-4000 rupees a month salary can afford. Well, I can tell you. They live in neighborhoods we describe as slums, they don't really eat meat because they cannot afford it, they have difficulties to school their children because it also costs and their children are not able to work if they go to school. If a person with, say, 3000 rupees a month salary gets injured or seriously sick etc. his/her life will be ruined for years if not for good. He just can't afford any decent treatment.
>> If we pay a full time maid 8000-15000 rupees - it's peanuts to many of us, but hopefully it guarantees a decent standard of living to them. It really doesn't make them rich. They are still poor. With 10 000 rupees a month salary - thinking of the rent prices in Delhi - you have to struggle to provide for your family.
>> If I pay here more than many locals, I don't feel stupid or fooled. I also don't consider myself a benefactor. I think it's just decent.
>> Tommi
>>
>> *From:* Lars
>> *To:* Yuni-Net@yahoogroups.com
>> *Subject:* Re: :-) Yuni-Net -- Price of Maids, servants, drivers, housekeepers
>> Hi All,
>> I have been following the postings of highly recommended domestic help on Yuni-Net for some time and I am amazed by the prices most foreigners seams to pay. I am sure some feel they do something good but I can assure you you don't. I can also assure you that some of these highly recommended employees have not only cheated you on their compensation - that we and my (Indian) family can say after interviewing a few. Most maids seaking work from non-Indians - esp. through naive employers on Yuni-Net - charge ridiculous over-price INR 8000-12000, AND most of them are not even willing to do mandatory Police clearance and registration – guess why?
FYI only: Maids - full time 24/7 servants - from a reputable agency is INR 3000-4000 per months, max, but you have to pay the agency a INR 20.000 - that include some warranties and security. Local maids in the high-end areas of Delhi get between 600-800-1250 for cleaning etc. for 8Am-8PM service INR 1500-2500. A long term reliable family servant can get as much as INR 6000 but then we are talking about someone who is close to be a family member an in family for 10-15-20 years or longer. A good driver is approx INR 7000-9000. If maid or driver get food or lodging it is less - 1000 for food and 1000 for lodging in servant quarters.
>> No wonder Indians much too often have an impression that foreigners are fools throwing away money – that’s why we are most of the times asked 2.5-3 times the price "locals" pay, we don't negotiate, we are not informed, and many don't care...and we pay. But we complain about how we are treated. Well I don't complain I get the right service, get the right price and only pay when it’s properly "delivered"/provided - just like most Indians do since life gets easier then.
>> Hope that helps someone.
>> Best regards / Namaste
>> Lars
On Sat, May 7, 2011 at 5:43 PM, Sara H Basson
I have enjoyed the threads related to what foreigners should or should not pay their drivers and maids. We are an American expat family in New Delhi for a year. I would be happy to talk about this over coffee!
I have gone through the various postings and I would summarize as follows:
-Indians are able to get maids for 1/10th of the "foreigner" price, and they believe the maids are no less happy or loyal. Giving them more salary creates more of a dependency and helplessness on the part of the servants.
- Some of the foreigners think that paying 10,000 rupees, even if it is an inflated "foreigner price," is a living wage.
- Some Indians point out that the extra money paid makes foreigners look foolish and the servants gloat that they have been able to cheat them.
- Some of the foreigners point out that they work for NGOs and aren't earning expat salaries...and then they just suffer the "price discrimination" for being foreign. (racial profiling!)
My position on these topics would be as follows:
- I don't think that 1000 rupees/month is a living wage in New Delhi...Let's put aside the unfortunate comment about meat; but can you buy enough fruit and vegetables? pay rent? electricity and water? Maybe some of this also comes down to what we all believe is the "minimum" that a person should be able to expect in life when they work. By western standards, we would think that you and your family should be able to afford healthy food, and a place to live that has electricity and water and a bathroom for your family. I have been told that servants can get by on less, because they can live in unorganized locations where they just take electricity and water from the grid without paying for anything. But that shouldn't be the goal.
- I have spoken to expats that also try to make sure that their servants set up bank accounts and that their children get educated. So we can start to break the cycle of poverty, and not foster "dependency."
- I have hired maids that have worked for expat families, and there is a premium to be paid. They speak English, they know international cooking and the sterilization issues for western stomachs. They come with references on letterhead from other expat families, that describe how trustworthy they are. I have trusted them with everything in our apartment; they have keys and full access. I have spoken to Indian colleagues that have had household help for years, and they still have locked rooms and limited access. I asked why they don't get references from previous employers. They said that they wouldn't trust the references; anyone can be paid off to say anything. In our case, I trust that references from other expats working for well-known companies/agencies are legitimate; that's worth a premium in and of itself.
1a. Re: :-) Price of Maids, servants,drivers
Date: Thu May 5, 2011 9:57 am ((PDT))
I agree with Lars, even though many have got triggered by it, somehow.
The same maids work in other houses and ask for a tenth of what they ask of foreigners.
My cook was polished, made momos to kathi rolls, did dishes (Indians don't have dishwashers) and was happy to get a salary of a thousand bucks (NOTE from Sara: 1000 buck = 1000 rupees = $20!)since I speak Hindi, and look like an Indian.
Her dream, of course, was to work in a wealthier house where the lady of the house could 'take care' of her family's needs.
Many of you have western notions of poverty or neediness. Too poor to eat meat!
Please do not think that you are doing any service to Indian humanity by doing this. Pitying them makes them more dependent and it feeds their helplessness.
We need to empower our employees to help themselves.
Regards,
Millie
Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeanne
Sender: Yuni-Net@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 18:43:24
Subject: :-) Yuni-Net -- Price of Maids, servants, drivers, house keepers
I completely agree with you, Heather. I'm in the same situation. I wrote down everything I paid for in an entire month, then exchanged the currency into American dollars. I was shocked. I have paid more for just about everything than I would in the US!!! Look at our typical lifestyles... we drink wine with dinner (800 - 1200 rupees = $17-27), we like AC, TV (DVR of course!) and high speed internet access (my electric bill last month was 9,000 - $205; my internet is 3500 - $78 - it's been up to 36,000 one month last year during the summer) and big cars. I don't own a car so I spend around 25,000 on a car service ($562). My rent is just under 30,000 ($674).
The rickshaw walla charges me a minimum of $1 to go anywhere; most places, it's $10 - negotiated. While these prices may not seem unreasonable in the US, when you're not making a US salary (I make a third of what I could be making back home), this can be very, very exasperating, especially since I know other people who are being charged less just because of their skin color.
I will say that if you know the local language,that can be a huge difference in how hard you can negotiate. My son is fluent and sometimes we go into a shop and he keeps quiet listening to the shopkeepers talking around us, when I've come up with my best price, I sick him on them and he negotiates for even more in Hindi. We've done better this way. I usually have him negotiate with repairmen and such. It really goes a long way....
I love Yuni-Net, though, because there are more people like me on this list than the other lists out there for expats in India. I'm glad we have this place to go just to ask questions about what is reasonable and I welcome people like Lars giving us a reality check every once in a while. After four years, you'd think you'd be settled, but India.... aaaaah, India. You are a place that will not give up your secrets. :-)
Cheers,
Jeanne
On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 6:50 PM, Heather Sager
> Hi All,
> While not expressed particularly well, I think Lars does hit on a good point. The "expat price" of things doesn't only extend to household help. It extends to everything we purchase. In the situation where an expat can afford to pay extra, that's wonderful. And I whole-heartedly agree that treating every individual with respect is a must. There is no excuse for treating any person poorly.
> However, not every expat is here on an expat-based salary. Many of us are here working (or volunteering) for NGOs or other non-profits, and are thereby making the same salary that an Indian might (or none at all).
Unfortunately, even where we can not afford to pay extra, we are expected to. In fact, it is demanded of us.
In this case, I'm not talking about drivers or household help, I'm more speaking of every day purchases and the like. Because the majority of the expat community can and does pay whatever is demanded of them, we are all expected to pay accordingly, despite what we can or can not afford. And often, attempting to bargain the price down, even to the point where we would still be paying more than what a local would pay, results in outright refusal.
> Regardless of how angry Lars' e-mail came across, it does become exhausting after some time, to know that despite the fact that my salary is the same as any local in my position, I am expected to pay double the rent, double the utilities, and double for food, etc.
> Now, you could argue that if I can not make a salary that would afford me to pay the extra that is demanded of me, then I should either change positions or work back home, where I would be making more. But this argument would demand that only those individuals who are fortunate enough to have money on their own, or who are working for a company/corporation that can afford them a higher salary, can stay in Delhi. The alternative would be to demand a higher salary from the non-profit organization, which is not practical and amounts to a salary increase based on your ethnicity, something I'm sure we all agree in and of itself is wrong.
> I thought I would throw this argument into the mix, to give the other side's perspective.
> Heather
>
> On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 2:34 PM, Beate wrote:
>> Spoken from my heart!!!
>>>> I could not agree more with you, Tommi!
>> I happily pay every single penny to my housekeeper and to my driver. In addition to that I treat them as human beings. And guess what, Lars? It works this way too!! Not only do they enjoy working for us, they actually give us a two hundred percent service and our household is a happy place. In addition to that we actually have the opportunity to get to know this extremely complex culture a little better.
>> So, everybody, do not necessarily as the Indians do, especially in this occasion! We all know only too well how wrong they can get it sometime!!
>> Wishing you a good Sunday
>> Beate
>> --- On *Sat, 30/4/11, Inka wrote:
>> Subject: Re: :-) Yuni-Net -- Price of Maids, servants, drivers, housekeepers
>> Date: Saturday, 30 April, 2011, 12:14 PM
>> Hi there,
>> I am an expat living in Def Col - and using here my wife's Yuni-Net account to post. We are employing two full day servants and two part time ones. I couldn't disagree more with you Lars. I find your posting sad.
>> Why so?
>> You're teaching us - the naive employers on YuniNet - on the reality of Indian maids and servants. Your only point seems to be that we pay more than some locals do. That is true for sure. I guess you just haven't ever thought what kind of living these servants with 2000-4000 rupees a month salary can afford. Well, I can tell you. They live in neighborhoods we describe as slums, they don't really eat meat because they cannot afford it, they have difficulties to school their children because it also costs and their children are not able to work if they go to school. If a person with, say, 3000 rupees a month salary gets injured or seriously sick etc. his/her life will be ruined for years if not for good. He just can't afford any decent treatment.
>> If we pay a full time maid 8000-15000 rupees - it's peanuts to many of us, but hopefully it guarantees a decent standard of living to them. It really doesn't make them rich. They are still poor. With 10 000 rupees a month salary - thinking of the rent prices in Delhi - you have to struggle to provide for your family.
>> If I pay here more than many locals, I don't feel stupid or fooled. I also don't consider myself a benefactor. I think it's just decent.
>> Tommi
>>
>> *From:* Lars
>> *To:* Yuni-Net@yahoogroups.com
>> *Subject:* Re: :-) Yuni-Net -- Price of Maids, servants, drivers, housekeepers
>> Hi All,
>> I have been following the postings of highly recommended domestic help on Yuni-Net for some time and I am amazed by the prices most foreigners seams to pay. I am sure some feel they do something good but I can assure you you don't. I can also assure you that some of these highly recommended employees have not only cheated you on their compensation - that we and my (Indian) family can say after interviewing a few. Most maids seaking work from non-Indians - esp. through naive employers on Yuni-Net - charge ridiculous over-price INR 8000-12000, AND most of them are not even willing to do mandatory Police clearance and registration – guess why?
FYI only: Maids - full time 24/7 servants - from a reputable agency is INR 3000-4000 per months, max, but you have to pay the agency a INR 20.000 - that include some warranties and security. Local maids in the high-end areas of Delhi get between 600-800-1250 for cleaning etc. for 8Am-8PM service INR 1500-2500. A long term reliable family servant can get as much as INR 6000 but then we are talking about someone who is close to be a family member an in family for 10-15-20 years or longer. A good driver is approx INR 7000-9000. If maid or driver get food or lodging it is less - 1000 for food and 1000 for lodging in servant quarters.
>> No wonder Indians much too often have an impression that foreigners are fools throwing away money – that’s why we are most of the times asked 2.5-3 times the price "locals" pay, we don't negotiate, we are not informed, and many don't care...and we pay. But we complain about how we are treated. Well I don't complain I get the right service, get the right price and only pay when it’s properly "delivered"/provided - just like most Indians do since life gets easier then.
>> Hope that helps someone.
>> Best regards / Namaste
>> Lars
Weekend in Rishikesh
We spent a lovely weekend out of Delhi in Rishikesh, a city about 5 hours away from Delhi and known for various adventure sports. There is white water rafting on the Ganga River, and bungee jumping, and trekking. It is also a major spiritual center for India, with lots of yoga and holy men etc. (Maybe because it’s on the Ganga river?) For some reason, it also attracts lots and lots of Israelis. Menus actually list “Israeli salad” as an option! While there, we opted to do some mountain hiking. We were told by the guide that it wouldn’t be too onerous, since we drive to the top of the mountain and then hike down. I figured gravity is in our favor, what can be bad? Plus, I walk a mile or two every day; I should be relatively fit. Wrong. The tourist office really needs to have signs that say things like: “Warning – not suitable for children under 12 or pregnant women,” like they say on amusement park rides…I know how to read the signals. It was a lovely trek in the beginning, but we had a 16 km hike down the mountain…and somewhere around kilometer 10, I really wanted to sit on the sidelines. But what can you do? You’re in the middle of a mountain…We ultimately made it down, but I was nearly in tears and I couldn’t walk down steps for the next 5 days…Amnon and the boys then went white water rafting on the Ganges, and had a great time. I stayed behind and watched movies on TV.
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)