YuniNet – discussion about maids/drivers and what expats pay them

I subscribe to a yahoo listserv for expats, called YuniNet. An interesting debate arose over treatment and pay for drivers and maids. I include it below, along with my summary.

On Sat, May 7, 2011 at 5:43 PM, Sara H Basson wrote:

I have enjoyed the threads related to what foreigners should or should not pay their drivers and maids. We are an American expat family in New Delhi for a year. I would be happy to talk about this over coffee!

I have gone through the various postings and I would summarize as follows:
-Indians are able to get maids for 1/10th of the "foreigner" price, and they believe the maids are no less happy or loyal. Giving them more salary creates more of a dependency and helplessness on the part of the servants.
- Some of the foreigners think that paying 10,000 rupees, even if it is an inflated "foreigner price," is a living wage.
- Some Indians point out that the extra money paid makes foreigners look foolish and the servants gloat that they have been able to cheat them.
- Some of the foreigners point out that they work for NGOs and aren't earning expat salaries...and then they just suffer the "price discrimination" for being foreign. (racial profiling!)

My position on these topics would be as follows:
- I don't think that 1000 rupees/month is a living wage in New Delhi...Let's put aside the unfortunate comment about meat; but can you buy enough fruit and vegetables? pay rent? electricity and water? Maybe some of this also comes down to what we all believe is the "minimum" that a person should be able to expect in life when they work. By western standards, we would think that you and your family should be able to afford healthy food, and a place to live that has electricity and water and a bathroom for your family. I have been told that servants can get by on less, because they can live in unorganized locations where they just take electricity and water from the grid without paying for anything. But that shouldn't be the goal.
- I have spoken to expats that also try to make sure that their servants set up bank accounts and that their children get educated. So we can start to break the cycle of poverty, and not foster "dependency."
- I have hired maids that have worked for expat families, and there is a premium to be paid. They speak English, they know international cooking and the sterilization issues for western stomachs. They come with references on letterhead from other expat families, that describe how trustworthy they are. I have trusted them with everything in our apartment; they have keys and full access. I have spoken to Indian colleagues that have had household help for years, and they still have locked rooms and limited access. I asked why they don't get references from previous employers. They said that they wouldn't trust the references; anyone can be paid off to say anything. In our case, I trust that references from other expats working for well-known companies/agencies are legitimate; that's worth a premium in and of itself.

1a. Re: :-) Price of Maids, servants,drivers
Date: Thu May 5, 2011 9:57 am ((PDT))

I agree with Lars, even though many have got triggered by it, somehow.

The same maids work in other houses and ask for a tenth of what they ask of foreigners.

My cook was polished, made momos to kathi rolls, did dishes (Indians don't have dishwashers) and was happy to get a salary of a thousand bucks (NOTE from Sara: 1000 buck = 1000 rupees = $20!)since I speak Hindi, and look like an Indian.

Her dream, of course, was to work in a wealthier house where the lady of the house could 'take care' of her family's needs.

Many of you have western notions of poverty or neediness. Too poor to eat meat!

Please do not think that you are doing any service to Indian humanity by doing this. Pitying them makes them more dependent and it feeds their helplessness.

We need to empower our employees to help themselves.

Regards,

Millie

Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone

-----Original Message-----

From: Jeanne
Sender: Yuni-Net@yahoogroups.com

Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 18:43:24

Subject: :-) Yuni-Net -- Price of Maids, servants, drivers, house keepers

I completely agree with you, Heather. I'm in the same situation. I wrote down everything I paid for in an entire month, then exchanged the currency into American dollars. I was shocked. I have paid more for just about everything than I would in the US!!! Look at our typical lifestyles... we drink wine with dinner (800 - 1200 rupees = $17-27), we like AC, TV (DVR of course!) and high speed internet access (my electric bill last month was 9,000 - $205; my internet is 3500 - $78 - it's been up to 36,000 one month last year during the summer) and big cars. I don't own a car so I spend around 25,000 on a car service ($562). My rent is just under 30,000 ($674).

The rickshaw walla charges me a minimum of $1 to go anywhere; most places, it's $10 - negotiated. While these prices may not seem unreasonable in the US, when you're not making a US salary (I make a third of what I could be making back home), this can be very, very exasperating, especially since I know other people who are being charged less just because of their skin color.

I will say that if you know the local language,that can be a huge difference in how hard you can negotiate. My son is fluent and sometimes we go into a shop and he keeps quiet listening to the shopkeepers talking around us, when I've come up with my best price, I sick him on them and he negotiates for even more in Hindi. We've done better this way. I usually have him negotiate with repairmen and such. It really goes a long way....

I love Yuni-Net, though, because there are more people like me on this list than the other lists out there for expats in India. I'm glad we have this place to go just to ask questions about what is reasonable and I welcome people like Lars giving us a reality check every once in a while. After four years, you'd think you'd be settled, but India.... aaaaah, India. You are a place that will not give up your secrets. :-)

Cheers,

Jeanne

On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 6:50 PM, Heather Sager wrote:


> Hi All,


> While not expressed particularly well, I think Lars does hit on a good point. The "expat price" of things doesn't only extend to household help. It extends to everything we purchase. In the situation where an expat can afford to pay extra, that's wonderful. And I whole-heartedly agree that treating every individual with respect is a must. There is no excuse for treating any person poorly.

> However, not every expat is here on an expat-based salary. Many of us are here working (or volunteering) for NGOs or other non-profits, and are thereby making the same salary that an Indian might (or none at all).

Unfortunately, even where we can not afford to pay extra, we are expected to. In fact, it is demanded of us.

In this case, I'm not talking about drivers or household help, I'm more speaking of every day purchases and the like. Because the majority of the expat community can and does pay whatever is demanded of them, we are all expected to pay accordingly, despite what we can or can not afford. And often, attempting to bargain the price down, even to the point where we would still be paying more than what a local would pay, results in outright refusal.

> Regardless of how angry Lars' e-mail came across, it does become exhausting after some time, to know that despite the fact that my salary is the same as any local in my position, I am expected to pay double the rent, double the utilities, and double for food, etc.

> Now, you could argue that if I can not make a salary that would afford me to pay the extra that is demanded of me, then I should either change positions or work back home, where I would be making more. But this argument would demand that only those individuals who are fortunate enough to have money on their own, or who are working for a company/corporation that can afford them a higher salary, can stay in Delhi. The alternative would be to demand a higher salary from the non-profit organization, which is not practical and amounts to a salary increase based on your ethnicity, something I'm sure we all agree in and of itself is wrong.

> I thought I would throw this argument into the mix, to give the other side's perspective.

> Heather

>
> On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 2:34 PM, Beate wrote:

>> Spoken from my heart!!!

>>>> I could not agree more with you, Tommi!

>> I happily pay every single penny to my housekeeper and to my driver. In addition to that I treat them as human beings. And guess what, Lars? It works this way too!! Not only do they enjoy working for us, they actually give us a two hundred percent service and our household is a happy place. In addition to that we actually have the opportunity to get to know this extremely complex culture a little better.

>> So, everybody, do not necessarily as the Indians do, especially in this occasion! We all know only too well how wrong they can get it sometime!!

>> Wishing you a good Sunday

>> Beate

>> --- On *Sat, 30/4/11, Inka wrote:

>> Subject: Re: :-) Yuni-Net -- Price of Maids, servants, drivers, housekeepers


>> Date: Saturday, 30 April, 2011, 12:14 PM

>> Hi there,

>> I am an expat living in Def Col - and using here my wife's Yuni-Net account to post. We are employing two full day servants and two part time ones. I couldn't disagree more with you Lars. I find your posting sad.


>> Why so?

>> You're teaching us - the naive employers on YuniNet - on the reality of Indian maids and servants. Your only point seems to be that we pay more than some locals do. That is true for sure. I guess you just haven't ever thought what kind of living these servants with 2000-4000 rupees a month salary can afford. Well, I can tell you. They live in neighborhoods we describe as slums, they don't really eat meat because they cannot afford it, they have difficulties to school their children because it also costs and their children are not able to work if they go to school. If a person with, say, 3000 rupees a month salary gets injured or seriously sick etc. his/her life will be ruined for years if not for good. He just can't afford any decent treatment.

>> If we pay a full time maid 8000-15000 rupees - it's peanuts to many of us, but hopefully it guarantees a decent standard of living to them. It really doesn't make them rich. They are still poor. With 10 000 rupees a month salary - thinking of the rent prices in Delhi - you have to struggle to provide for your family.


>> If I pay here more than many locals, I don't feel stupid or fooled. I also don't consider myself a benefactor. I think it's just decent.

>> Tommi
>>

>> *From:* Lars

>> *To:* Yuni-Net@yahoogroups.com

>> *Subject:* Re: :-) Yuni-Net -- Price of Maids, servants, drivers, housekeepers


>> Hi All,

>> I have been following the postings of highly recommended domestic help on Yuni-Net for some time and I am amazed by the prices most foreigners seams to pay. I am sure some feel they do something good but I can assure you you don't. I can also assure you that some of these highly recommended employees have not only cheated you on their compensation - that we and my (Indian) family can say after interviewing a few. Most maids seaking work from non-Indians - esp. through naive employers on Yuni-Net - charge ridiculous over-price INR 8000-12000, AND most of them are not even willing to do mandatory Police clearance and registration – guess why?

FYI only: Maids - full time 24/7 servants - from a reputable agency is INR 3000-4000 per months, max, but you have to pay the agency a INR 20.000 - that include some warranties and security. Local maids in the high-end areas of Delhi get between 600-800-1250 for cleaning etc. for 8Am-8PM service INR 1500-2500. A long term reliable family servant can get as much as INR 6000 but then we are talking about someone who is close to be a family member an in family for 10-15-20 years or longer. A good driver is approx INR 7000-9000. If maid or driver get food or lodging it is less - 1000 for food and 1000 for lodging in servant quarters.

>> No wonder Indians much too often have an impression that foreigners are fools throwing away money – that’s why we are most of the times asked 2.5-3 times the price "locals" pay, we don't negotiate, we are not informed, and many don't care...and we pay. But we complain about how we are treated. Well I don't complain I get the right service, get the right price and only pay when it’s properly "delivered"/provided - just like most Indians do since life gets easier then.

>> Hope that helps someone.

>> Best regards / Namaste

>> Lars